Beyond Pain: Optimizing Health

Shen & Shenanigans | Episode 3: Beyond Pain: Optimizing Health
Conversation between Dr. James and Devynne
Recorded January 2025

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INTRODUCTION

James: We want to start by talking about what we treat, what acupuncture can be helpful for, and answering the question of why would someone come in for treatment. Why would someone seek acupuncture as a help or an assist with health goals? There are lots of different ways to approach that question, but it’s one we get a lot, especially through the tea shop. People come in, find out we’re acupuncturists, and ask: what is that helpful for?

Devynne: From the first take we did, we talked about the tea shop and how good it is at bringing people in and getting to meet our community and talk to people. As they figure out that we’re acupuncturists, there’s always some curiosity. Most people have something going on health-wise, or they have a family member who has something going on. What we love about running a tea shop on weekends is the conversations we get to have with folks. One of the common questions is: why would I get acupuncture?

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PAIN IS THE ENTRY POINT

Devynne: Pain is usually the ticket in the door. People usually come in for some knee pain, shoulder pain, back pain, or headaches. We’re very good with pain. But there’s a lot of other things we treat in the clinic on the regular that aren’t necessarily about pain.

One topic we talk about getting into today is the question that comes up: do I have to have something going on to seek acupuncture? Do I have to be broken in order to explore these services? I think one of the beauties of the way we practice the five element system is the way we were trained. We hold a vision of who someone is in health as opposed to what’s broken. I think that’s what leads us to a lot of the life work that we do.

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VISION OF HEALTH VERSUS WHAT’S BROKEN

James: It’s always an interesting shift for even our patients, because the medical healthcare system in general operates from the assumption that something’s going on, something’s wrong. And if you do this thing, then you feel better. It creates a linear path: something’s wrong. Take this. Feel better. But that origin comes from something being wrong and broken.

Whereas our role is being able to sit with them and hold this vision of who they are whole and healthy and moving them toward that. We’re not always just trying to patch things up. It’s about how to get you to a place where you’re healthy. And then how do we keep you healthy? What’s beyond healthy? What does thriving look like? What does feeling like your best self look like?

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NOT WAITING UNTIL YOU’RE THIRSTY

James: I’ve used a quote a lot with folks who come in around the idea of not waiting till you’re thirsty to dig a well. How do we get ahead of things and make sure the body’s functioning the way it’s intended to function? Make sure things are balanced and we are living the lives we want to live. So it goes beyond just fixing what’s broken.

Devynne: It’s also helping people connect with that place inside of them that doesn’t feel like something needs fixed. I have a few different people that I work with who feel like they have to have something wrong with them every time they come in. When I ask how they’re doing or how their week’s been, there’s unsettledness around not having something wrong. That’s interesting because we’re just trained to be in a seeking place. We think something needs to be better. But what if better was more from a place of improvement and refinement rather than lack of wholeness? That’s more of a philosophical direction, but we are trained to find something that’s wrong so we can fix it.

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OPTIMIZING HEALTH

James: I love the idea of messaging around optimizing health. We see it a lot with people coming in for pain like shoulder pain, knee pain, or hip pain. They want to try this before they have the surgery their doctors are telling them they need. And even for those who still end up needing surgery because it was more structural, it’s neat when they come back and heal so much faster. Their doctors are surprised they’re not on the pain meds they were typically on after a procedure.

That’s all from the work we’ve done prior to that surgery so we’ve got things optimized in a way that the body will heal itself if we put the right things in motion. It’s an interesting concept for people because we are so reactive to what’s going on in our bodies, especially as we age.

One of the things we hear a lot that’s always fascinating is: I went to the doctor and they said this is just normal because I’m getting older. But what if it wasn’t normal? What if you didn’t have to deal with that pain, that sleeplessness, those sorts of things?

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THE SIDE EFFECTS OF GOOD MEDICINE

James: We joke about the side effects of the work we do. Usually improved energy, improved mood, improved digestion, and improved sleep. Even as the body shifts and comes back into order, those are the things we just expect to regulate. We’re obviously working on your pain or whatever else is going on, but that chalks itself up to the idea of things getting optimized.

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GETTING USED TO YOUR NORMAL

Devynne: On a revisit of the original question of do I have to have something wrong to seek treatment, the answer is no. But the initial reaction is always interesting. I catch myself chuckling when I say it to people: there may be actually more going on there than you think there is.

When we do the paperwork and they check the boxes, there’s this sense of normalcy. My digestion’s fine, but I’m taking probiotics and I have to take herbs and supplements and all of these things to keep myself normal. But if we don’t take them, we’re a wreck. What if that didn’t have to be your normal?

There’s a category of person who may actually have things we can optimize, even though you don’t see them as a problem because you’re so used to navigating them and working around them. And then there’s the other category of person. That’s great. You’re healthy. How do we make sure we keep you healthy and keep you feeling great?

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EXPLORING DEEPER

Devynne: Where we also get into a lot of the life work is asking: how’s stress? What are your goals? Do you have dreams? Do you have the ability to create a vision for yourself of what’s next? Or are you just happy and healthy and going through emotions but there’s no direction? Sometimes that stuff comes out through those conversations. Oh, well, yeah, I haven’t really thought about that. This is life. I feel good. It’s fine. So that creates a different direction as well.

James: The idea of aging is interesting. Some people start to notice things as they get older. Some people know they’re getting older and want to make sure those things don’t pop up on them. We’re seeing it in the gym too with folks who are a little older, finding more strength, restoring balance, getting stronger. We do the same work in the treatment room. How do we keep things at bay? How do we keep helping you feel like you’re getting the things done in life that you want to do? How do we help you feel like you can do all the things you want to do while feeling good and having enough energy and being strong enough?

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MEDICATIONS AND SUPPLEMENTS AS SIGNS

James: I had a patient one time who was on five blood pressure medicines. When I asked about their blood pressure, they said it’s fine, it’s good, it’s regulated. But you’re on five meds. What’s going on in the system that you need that much medication to keep your blood pressure regulated?

Or what about the anxiety medications? What about the melatonin? What about the probiotics or the digestive enzymes? I don’t have anything against the supplement world. There are some things we need. But if we need them as a crutch, that’s also a sign that there’s something off in the system that’s not functioning like it should.

All of the food sensitivities and allergies, all of that sort of stuff in the world that we’re dealing with as a society—they’re all signs and symptoms that something’s not functioning at its best. What if we could regulate things and help the body function better?

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LAYERS AND RESISTANCE

Devynne: It goes back to the conversation of the intention. It’s not to find something that’s wrong and be like, oh, you’re not as healthy as you think. But the word reactive is perfect. We just get used to layering these things in and it keeps one piece where it needs to be. Then something else wobbles out and we find that next thing. It’s usually over the counter herbs or supplements that keep it in line. And then the next thing you know, even if you’re not on any medications, you’re on five, six, seven different supplements or herbs.

When we get patients on herbs, that conversation is always: these are intended to support your treatments and guide you back to that equilibrium. When we get there, hopefully we have the option of coming off of them. If you want to get off or in a place of maintenance and constitutional support. But if they go away and your world’s not falling apart without them, that means we’ve hit that corrective phase. We don’t want them holding things together either, because then we’re doing the same thing with a different tool.

James: Don’t not take the thing if it is making you feel good. But what if we got you to a place where you feel like you have the option of taking those things? If you forget, your world doesn’t fall apart. But you want to take them as prevention and maintenance, not because you have to. When you get to that place where you just forget or realize you don’t need it, that’s a cool place to be in.

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THE GOAL: INDEPENDENCE

Devynne: We joke with new patients all the time: the goal is for you to not need us. The acupuncture works the same way. We start seeing you weekly and building momentum. But if things are working and you’re feeling great, we’re getting you to every other week, every three weeks. Maintenance looks different for everyone based on their goals. But it’s in our intention for you to not meet us in order to hold things together.

James: Maintenance is an interesting word. When we resolve what you come in for, my expectation, unless there’s something going on systemically that’s out of our control, is that those things remain resolved. Unless there’s something lifestyle-wise that’s causing problems.

I’ve had patients where we do our work to help maintain health so that they’re keeping something like dialysis at bay. You’re going to need me for a while probably, and the herbs because that’s part of the process. But if you’ve got back pain or something we can resolve, our hope is to resolve it and then how do we keep it at bay?

Maybe it’s maintenance, maybe you don’t need that maintenance. Maybe you feel so good that you just want to stick around and continue because you feel good. I don’t ever want to approach something from a place of: if you stop coming to see me, all your stuff is going to come back. That’s not the beauty of how we practice. The goal is not to make you dependent on us. If you stay connected to it’s because you feel so good and just want to stay in that space.

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TRUST AND LONG TERM CARE

Devynne: I think I’ve heard that concern more since we’ve moved to Montana than when we were in South Carolina. People have either a previous experience or a story of a friend or family member who’s done treatment somewhere else. They’re like, so and so loves it, but they can’t not have it. Or I don’t want to get hooked on it.

That’s not a judgment on whoever they’re seeing. There’s no backstory there. You don’t know the starting line. But yeah, that isn’t the goal. And it is a concern that comes in: I don’t want to start because then I’m going to need it. I don’t want to do this forever.

I don’t want you to do this forever either, unless you just want to be around. And you’re welcome to stay around and be around. That’s one thing that’s super cool about how we practice—we’ve had people that were around five, six, seven years of our journey in South Carolina. We got to experience different phases of their lives from when they first came in with that initial thing they wanted help with. Then they stuck around and maybe entered a maintenance mode. But then life happens and you’re supporting them in different ways through different stages.

It really speaks to the dynamics of life in general. You get to see people go off and make different choices. We had some people move. We had people start a business or take a job they never thought they were going to take. It’s a really cool aspect of our medicine.

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THE ROLE OF MENTAL EMOTIONAL HEALTH

James: A lot of people do work with mental emotional health. Even for folks who come in for something else, when they start feeling better emotionally or their anxiety is reduced and stress levels are down, there’s just something about that when they start discovering joy.

When life, when the lights come back on and they’re just happier and just feel better, I think that’s probably something that keeps people connected to us, even though they originally came in for knee pain.

Devynne: It doesn’t mean that you come in for knee pain and we’re going to get into all your emotions. We’re not going to tell you it’s all that and we may not even talk about it. But the process we go through—if you’re restoring how the body’s intended to function, it’s not intended to have all the anxiety and stress and worries that we have in day to day life.

Your knee starts feeling better. You start sleeping better. Your mood improves. I tell a story of a wife whose husband was coming in and she talked about how much nicer he was getting on some of the herbs and treatments. The joke was like, you’re not supposed to be giving him the herbs. She said, I’m not.

Just handling the day to day stuff and feeling good in ourselves, I think, is one reason people stay connected after things have healed.

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UNDERSTANDING YOUR NORMAL

Devynne: We get used to our normals. Our normal is our normal, and that’s fine. It just becomes how we live our lives. We don’t realize: what if that wasn’t your normal? What if it could be different? What if it could feel better? What if you didn’t have to be resigned to this is just the way it is?

We’ve had that with even a couple of patients who have needed surgeries. Our healthcare system is in a challenging state where I think we see the extremes. People are either worried about coming here and us judging them for still being part of conventional medicine, or they’re very anti that altogether. The anti is interesting because I’ve had a couple people who don’t want to have the surgery and they’re so stubborn about all of the things.

That is one piece—structure is structure. If it’s broken or torn, it is what it is. You have a different choice in front of you. If you’re okay and happy with the quality of life you have, then great. What if there are things we can do to support you through that and get to a place where you do decide to pull the trigger on it?

And what if that is the thing that gives you your quality of life back? The surgical stuff is a fascinating corner of our practice that we didn’t anticipate having. But seeing people go through that process, recover, and be on the other side and get back to doing things they couldn’t do before is fascinating. Sometimes that’s a role we play too.

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ADVOCACY AND PARTNERSHIP

James: I don’t really have a vote in it. I’m here to support you and whatever your process is. If you don’t want any part of the conventional system, I’m not going to sit and put the system down with you. And I will advise you where I think you need to be advised. But I’m also not going to talk you out of your belief system. Same with if you’re taking medications and things your doctors are doing—I’m not going to tell you that’s bad either.

This is about your process and what we can do to support you where you are. If you want to talk about your medications, we’re educated enough to do that. But I’m never going to tell you they’re evil. If you’re absolutely anti the western side, there may be moments where you need a different conversation.

The beauty of how we practice is the rapport and trust developed between us and our patients because we get to have honest conversations without feeling like we’re trying to influence you one way or the other. I just really want you to be informed and advocate for yourself.

Devynne: At the end of the day, you have to be behind your choices that you’re making for yourself, one direction or the other. If you move forward, great. And if you don’t, there’s going to be some experience you’re having on the other side of that, regardless of which path you choose. You just have to be okay with it.

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LISTENING AND ADVOCACY

James: The advocacy piece is so important. When we were getting our doctorates, one of the classes we had was about integrating into Western medicine and what our role is within that. There was a big conversation about helping patients advocate for themselves. It’s not our job to push them in one direction or the other, but to help them feel empowered enough to do that.

Your care team should support you no matter who it is—primary care, chiropractor, PT, acupuncturist, coach, trainer. Everybody should be pulling in the same direction. But they should also be like, this is about you and what you need and want.

Devynne: One of the main points I usually have with patients when we’re talking about advocacy is: make sure you can have a conversation with them. If you don’t feel like you can sit and have a conversation with your provider, regardless of who that provider is, and they’re just dictating to you how it should go—I’m not saying they always have to agree with you. But you should be able to have a conversation.

I’ve worked with patients whose providers fired them because they refused to do what the provider wanted. I think they were probably better off without them. They landed with providers that were more open to conversations.

If you don’t feel like you can have a conversation, you don’t feel heard, or you don’t have time—which is a real problem in the system these days—you only get five or ten minutes. How can you possibly listen to someone in that amount of time? Your care team should be on your team. They should be working with you and for you.

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THE INFORMATION PROBLEM

James: We’re all educated in our own way. We all chose our specialties and fields because we think that’s the best path forward. I wouldn’t be doing this work if I didn’t think this would help people. Everyone feels the same way in their field. They’ve studied and they’re practicing. But sometimes it’s easy to get lost. If you’re seeing more than eight or nine patients a day, you just show up, check the box, shake hands, do the thing, run through the report. Forgetting that the person in front of you, their questions are valid and real.

We have people that come in having Googled information. We joke about Dr. Google, and they come in with information we’re grateful to have the time and space to work with. We’ve set up our practice to create opportunities for those conversations, and you can’t do that in five minutes.

Devynne: It’s funny you bring up Dr. Google because I believe that if we as practitioners spend that time with our patients, or are allowed to spend that time, patients probably feel less of a need to Google so much. You’re not feeling well and you’re desperate and you’re trying to understand. You want to know what’s going on and what lab tests mean and what symptoms mean.

If I can’t check in and talk to my provider and have an honest conversation, then the next best thing is to go ask Dr. Google. Even when we spend time, we still have patients who ask Dr. Google. But we’ve developed enough time and rapport to know that taking the time to listen to their concerns matters. This is the only time they’ve had with you this week. This is a human in front of you concerned about what they’re going through, trying to find answers.

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THE COMPLEXITY OF CHINESE MEDICINE INFORMATION

Devynne: It’s tricky because there’s not a lot of good, credible information out there about how we practice. When people do go down the rabbit hole looking for understanding within Chinese medicine, the sources they find may not be the best route.

I’ve shared some of our herbalists and online herbal resources with people and said: you’re going to end up on this page. It’s probably a lot more jargon than you need, but it’s a resource we trust. So if you’re going to look, look here. Then as you have more questions, bring them back and I can help you decipher between that. Which is different than just Googling an herb and seeing what comes up and being down the entire rabbit hole.

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HERBS AREN’T ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL

James: There’s a lot of misinformation around herbs. Chinese herbs are different. It’s not like you go to the grocery store or Amazon and order something. You end up with someone who doesn’t have as much education with the use of herbs as someone who’s actually studied them.

Ashwagandha is a good example. It’s a wonderful herb. But ashwagandha is not ordered for everybody. In Chinese medicine, we use them in formulas. There may be twelve to fifteen ingredients in a formula. If you go home and search all twelve ingredients, you may learn something about one herb that doesn’t make sense to you because that’s not what you have going on.

But you also don’t understand that it’s in there to play a very specific note within the harmony of that formula. It may just be there to harmonize the formula. It may not make sense when we Google it, but it’s in there for a reason. It may play a completely different note in a different song in a different formula based on who we’re customizing for and what we’re trying to do.

Dosage matters. It may be the chief herb. It may be the one in charge. It may just be playing a really small supporting role. And that matters as to what it does in the formula. It’s not as easy as pulling something off the shelf for a particular symptom.

Devynne: We send home formulas with a little talk. Here, I’m going to give you these ingredients. You’re going to go home and Google them. I know you are. But before you go down any rabbit holes, come back and ask me. I’m happy to sit with you and explain why that herb is in there and the role it’s trying to play and why it may not make sense to you but why it makes perfect sense to me and how it’s going to help you through this process.

That only happens if you have experience with the patient and they trust they can come back and ask questions. If they don’t, they’re not going to trust you and they’re going to go down other rabbit holes. Because your symptoms being the same doesn’t mean that even if your experiences are identical, you’re two different people.

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THE TEA SHOP APPROACH

James: We have a tea shop and we have a few over the counter herbs on the shelf. Even those, even though they’re set up and safe for the remedies we’ve created, there are still conversations. We chat and make sure this is probably the right thing for you. Just because it says cough on the thing doesn’t mean it’s the right formula for your type of cough. There are four different types of cough formulas because what’s your cough like?

Devynne: Someone recently came in with digestive stuff. We have two formulas we feel pretty confident about for over the counter digestion. Through more conversation, there was an element of pain happening. At that point, I was like: the moment we go there, I need to see you as a patient. Pain is one of those things where we can’t just give something over the counter. If we move something and there’s pain, we need to know more about it.

It’s been an interesting journey since we’ve been here because we’ve always been adamant: you have to work with us as a patient. When we moved here because of our retail space, there was so much curiosity and interest in herbs. We went back and forth—are there things we could give over the counter, even in small doses? We joke about microdosing powders and tinctures so we don’t give a full heavy hitter, just enough to nudge the conversation in the direction we think will be helpful.

But it took probably three or four months before we pulled the trigger on our first couple formulas because we wanted to make sure we were comfortable with those edges and boundaries. It’s always interesting here, but different.

James: I’m not trying to sell you acupuncture in those moments. I’m just trying to make sure you’re getting taken care of. I don’t want to sell you something off the counter just for the sake of selling you something that may not be right. We don’t have anything over the counter that’s going to harm you. But if this isn’t going to do it for you because I need more information, then that formula is not on the shelf and we’d need to customize something.

Devynne: The relationship we’ve built with the community here is interesting because we’ve been so steady with holding that line. When people come in and we say we can’t, they trust us and believe us in that. Which was the goal. It’s not feeling like we were trying to bait and switch people into the treatment room.

The goal isn’t for you to walk out of here with bags and bags of supplements and just really rack up a bill. If we have something, we would gladly give it. Sometimes we have teas, which is like another price point. But it’s cool to have that experience of telling people no they shouldn’t have something and that reflection back: oh, you know we’re looking out for them and not just trying to sell them another product.

If we don’t have it, we don’t have it. We’re not going to try to find or make it up to make it happen. I had that happen this past weekend. We did a couple teas and a tincture and I think we ended up doing an evil bone water topical. Then we got into a tincture and I was like: honestly, I just don’t think it’s a good idea. They were like: okay, cool. I’ll just take the tea and the evil bone water. It’s nice to be able to tell them that. But also when you come back, you can trust what we’re saying. Which just starts that relationship in a different way.

James: The tea has been neat for that because we’ve got wonderful support. Inspiration is what the lungs are for. It’s well named for those who come in with a cough or something going with their lungs. Let’s say some tea. Seven bucks for an entry point. Try an ounce of it. If it doesn’t work, I’ve certainly got some tinctures that can be more helpful and a variety of things for what’s going on right now.

We’ve got dry lung, weak lung, phlegm in the lung. What do you need? I’ve got five different tinctures. We’re going to have to have a conversation. Let’s try the tea. If the tea doesn’t work, come back and see me. I’ve got some herbs for you. And if you get on the other side and you don’t feel like you recovered, then we get you in a treatment room and we can help you recover from that too.

It’s always about how we can meet you where you are. If you want something more aggressive from the beginning, then absolutely, let’s dig into the herbs. Maybe we may even ask you to stick out your tongue and let us feel your pulses. But it’s neat to be able to take care of people in that setting. Fridays and Saturdays around here are about that. It’s fun for us to be around and meet the public.

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CLASSICAL PRACTICE IN A MODERN WORLD

Devynne: Chinese medicine is interesting depending on people’s experiences and exposure with it. There are a lot of transplants where we are, so I think that helps. People who have moved in from other areas have been exposed to it in different ways. But it is different.

James: There’s so much nature here and people like the idea of natural. There’s that holistic word again. But they want to stick to the roots of things. One of the things I appreciate about how we practice is we try to remain very traditional with the medicine and stay rooted in the classical approach. We’re really not going to go out of our way to humor you either. We’re not going to sell you something just because you want it.

The treatment room is another example. We’re very traditional in how we practice. People might want to come in and get dry needling or whatever that is. But we’re still going to do what we think we need to do for you to help you. We practice the way we practice for a reason. It’s not robotic. It’s very intentional. We don’t have electrodes or any of those things.

Maybe you’ve had it elsewhere and found it effective. That’s cool. But I believe in my tools and our approach. I’ve found myself here asking people who’ve been exposed to acupuncture about their experience because the westernization of our medicine is becoming more prevalent. Most people have been exposed to lots of needles or different needling styles or different gadgets and gizmos.

So it’s having that point of reference: okay, that’s cool. Just so you know, we’re going to probably do four or five needles. You’re coming in for shoulder pain and it’s probably not going to be in your shoulder. So just be prepared for that. Which opens up different dialogue, which is fun. We love talking about it and educating people on it.

One of the jokes we’ve had over the last couple years is as unique as our style is for Western culture, I think we’re realizing we’ve also taken our own approach within the unique approach of classical acupuncture. It’s not just five element anymore. It’s just how we practice, which is interesting.

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STRETCHING BOUNDARIES WHILE STAYING CLASSICAL

James: We’ve definitely stretched the boundaries of what we studied in school. It was classical five element acupuncture, more classical acupuncture. I’m definitely not a purist to toe the line to that because the teachers I’ve studied with all have something to offer.

I do seek out teachers that are more classical in their approaches. The modernization and westernization of medicine feels like they’re replacing a prescription of medications with a prescription of needles. We just don’t get on board with one-size-fits-all.

We’ve talked about migraines. We’ve treated a lot of migraines and there are absolutely prescriptions of acupuncture points for migraines. We really haven’t come across migraines we haven’t been able to resolve. But I’ve never treated one the same way because people are unique. Sitting and listening and talking and getting to know people and hearing their concerns, figuring out who they are in health. That’s the key.

What they’ve been through and what’s led them to where they are and where the headaches are stemming from. Everybody needs something different. There might be some commonalities between some points, but it’s a unique medicine. It’s really based on what’s going on with you and how to restore balance in your body. The climate should be different for your neighbor. You’re just not the same people.

It’s neat to get to know people and understand them and figure out what those puzzles are where we can unlock things and free things up and resolve some of those things. I’ve had patients who’ve been dealing with headaches for fifteen years. A nurse back in South Carolina. Fifteen years. She’d tried everything. She’d been everywhere. The only thing she really said to me was: I don’t want to know how this works because I won’t believe it and I’ll poke holes in the theory.

It wasn’t until she hadn’t had a migraine for three months that she was like: what in the world is this all about? And we had great conversations. Then we got into the life stuff and things that were probably related to where the headaches were stemming from. But yeah, it’s really neat to help people find that kind of relief.

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WOMEN’S HEALTH AND NORMALCY

James: Maybe it’s not fifteen years. Maybe they’re just starting. But it’s that way for everything. It’s beyond headaches. It’s sleep and digestion and hormones. Absolutely. The women’s health stuff is periods. You’re not supposed to have pain around your period. You’re not supposed to be moody. You’re not supposed to have all the things that we. Every person in my life that’s ever known who had a cycle once a month has had some sort of disturbance in that cycle. I didn’t know that was not healthy until I went to acupuncture school and learned it. Oh, I shouldn’t be that way.

And absolutely with menopause or perimenopause—hot flashes, night sweats, and all the things that come with that. This medicine is amazing for those types of things. But they all need something specific for their needs. There’s not anything I’m going to pull off the shelf and say: here, this is the secret bullet and it’s going to solve this. It’s work we have to do together.

We’ve got some workshops coming. We’re working on women’s health stuff for menopause and perimenopause. How do we make that easy? Whether it’s some herbal stuff with some talks and wisdom we can share from our world.

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AUTOIMMUNE CONDITIONS

Devynne: Autoimmune diseases are another one that’s interesting to draw attention to. We talk about pain, sleep, digestion. But the autoimmune stuff is usually complex, and it’s complex in the Western world too. It becomes this thing of you’re having this experience, you don’t actually know what’s going on. So let’s slap the autoimmune label on it.

But we have pretty good success with those types of things. It usually overlaps with some of the life work. But a lot of times, it’s the body holding onto things it’s been through and gone through. It’s tucked away and creating this systemic fight or reaction. That’s one that a lot of people by the time they make it to us feel they’ve lost hope around resolving because doctors have told them: you’re just going to be dealing with this the rest of your life. It’s autoimmune. So that one’s always an interesting one too.

James: The signs and symptoms that are going on are obvious that there’s something out of balance. There’s something that needs to be restored. So the acupuncture and Chinese medicine is fantastic for it.

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HAVING AN EXPERIENCE VERSUS HAVING A DIAGNOSIS

Devynne: I always tell people: if you’re having an experience of something, chances are we help. And that makes it really broad. But it keeps it from being too narrow. Our culture is so quick to want labels. And sometimes we need them. But we also see a lot of people who are just like: I’ve been everywhere. I’ve had all the tests run. They can’t figure out what’s going on.

That’s tricky because there’s no label. Which I think is why I shifted my language to having an experience. You don’t need a diagnosis of something in order for us to be helpful. Which I think is also important to say.

James: We’re going to do our own diagnosis. Our approach and the lenses we look through is completely different. Even if you have a label, your experience of that condition may be different from someone else’s experience of that exact same condition.

Devynne: Yeah.

James: The labels are helpful for some people, especially when they’ve been dealing with things for so long. But just because you don’t have a label doesn’t always mean there’s an answer either.

Devynne: I’ve had people ask if they’re actively seeking other tests and all of those things like: do I need to wait until I have those results and answers before I come see you? And I’m like: no, just come in because we can start working with it.

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QUESTIONS MATTER MORE THAN ANSWERS

James: We touched on this. Our approach usually has more to do with the questions that we ask than the answers that we have. Getting in and really investigating and figuring out what’s going on is more valuable than having all the answers.

If I have all the answers, this appointment should only take five minutes. You come in, tell me what’s going on, I immediately tell you what’s wrong. I haven’t really taken the time to get to know what’s going on with you. But also, I’ve got more questions. That’s why we need to talk longer.

I want to know what your experience of this is and how you’re experiencing this condition. When is it better? When is it worse? When did it start? What’s going on in your life? Really getting to know you so we can come up with a plan that can restore health.

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[Conversation continues. Full episode available in audio.]